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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 2.0

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 45 post(s)
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 446	Posted - 2013.01.21 21:29:00 - [1] - Quote How soon do you think we will be able to see these on the test server? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 449	Posted - 2013.01.22 15:30:00 - [2] - Quote Jame Jarl Retief wrote: Keko Khaan wrote: Well yea i can agree with this.. And yea maybe mass penalty is bit rough compared to sig penalty. But to give another skill that reduces its penalty while not giving anything to other.. Problem is, you can't compare shields and armor in a straight-up manner. For one, shields regen, armor doesn't. That alone invalidates a lot of direct shield vs armor comparisons. Now, if CCP added passive armor repair via some new nanite technology, then shield vs armor comparisons would work better, but the cost would be shield and armor tanking being completely homogenized. Then again, with AAR being added on top of ASB, arguably the two ARE getting homogenized regardless. But the AAR and the ASB are functionally different, which was a great idea to do, I like the AAR in both what it does and that it is different from the ASB. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 449	Posted - 2013.01.22 15:42:00 - [3] - Quote Spugg Galdon wrote: To be honest. All rigs should have their penalty removed and the bonus you get from them linked to the level of the skill you train for it. I mean why not? The drawbacks on rigs on the whole tend to be stupid. Also there is so much imbalance between the rigs. Some rigs are far too good while others are just underwhelming In one of the other balancing threads someone mentioned the idea of a 20% reduction per rigging level instead of 10% per level, both improving the effectiveness of rigs and making there a reason to train them to level 5 Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 449	Posted - 2013.01.22 15:43:00 - [4] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Why do we even still have 50mm plates? If you're plating a frigate it should be a 200mm or 400mm or it's a wasted slot. still waiting on tristan rep bonus btw POWNAGE rookie ships Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 450	Posted - 2013.01.22 15:51:00 - [5] - Quote Edward Olmops wrote: Shpenat wrote: No other issues people have are being addressed. The high PG requirements of medium and large repair fits (as you need dual rep at lest to be able to fight). Quite large capacitor usage on medium and large armour repair modules. And relatively weak amount repaired per second eve on bonused ships. Not entirely correct. If some effect like the proposed rigs allow to GREATLY accelerate reppers, you might find a single repper sufficient. This also affects slots and PG usage. The only remaining issue is cap. But there is always a catch, isn't it? Well a skill to reduce cap usage would be nice. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 451	Posted - 2013.01.22 16:29:00 - [6] - Quote The RAH needs to be more fluid to be used, as such is should shift resistances based upon the incoming damage % and not solely the damage type. Also it would need to be constantly check the incoming damage and adjust again Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 451	Posted - 2013.01.22 17:39:00 - [7] - Quote I have had this bad idea about making passive modules low slots and active modules mid slots ( this would exclude and module that fits in a high slot) Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 453	Posted - 2013.01.22 20:32:00 - [8] - Quote ghost st wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: ghost st wrote: As I said before the issue isnt speed, armor does not need to be like shield tanking. The problem is that the sig radius penalties for shield tanking are ineffective, and do not have the same crippling effects as the speed penalties for armor. IMO armor ships should be slow, but relatively difficult to hit due to smaller sig. Shield ships should be fast, bit the increased sig should make them easier to hit. The issue is that sig radius has very little effect on the amount of damage received, while transversal velocity (maneuverability) has a huge impact. Make sig radius a part of the tracking calculation aswell, so that a large signature radius nullifies some of the effect of transversal velocity. This is not true, but you can't generally see the result in EFT. -Liang Ed: Also, sig is already in the tracking calculation. :) Sig only has an effect on gun size/ ship sig, it has not effect on tracking whatsoever, its kind of stapled on there like an afterthought. ChanceToHit = 0.5 ^ ((((Transversal speed/(Range to target * Turret Tracking))*(Turret Signature Resolution / Target Signature Radius))^2) + ((max(0, Range To Target - Turret Optimal Range))/Turret Falloff)^2) Pretty sure that the ships signature radius has an effect on tracking. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 454	Posted - 2013.01.23 02:48:00 - [9] - Quote It would be nice to see armor repairing work more like a constant effect (as some one else stated before), activating a armor repairer would drain nGJ/1Second and repair xHP/1Second. The Repair Systems would increase the repaired amount by y% per level. The HP/GJ/S ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers (Repair Systems V) Small Armor Repairer II 40GJ 80HP 6s = .4444HP/GJ/s Medium Armor Repairer II 160GJ 320 HP 12s = .2222HP/GJ/s Large Armor Repairer II 400GJ 800HP 15s = .1777HP/GJ/s This is a steep change from small to medium, and not much of a change from medium to large. This should be looked at before introducing new modules into the Armor Tanking system. A quick look at shield boosters HP/GJ/second Small Shield Booster 20GJ 30HP 2s = .75HP/GJ/s Medium Shield Booster 60GJ 90HP 3s = .5HP/GJ/s Large Shield Booster 160GJ 240HP 4s = .375HP/GJ/s X-Large Shield Booster 400GJ 600HP 5s = .3HP/GJ/s This is a nice step from small to X-large. Ingoring all other factors for the moment, why would someone want to use armor repairers when shield boosters are far superior? Shield boosters also get the shield boost amplifier Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:03:00 - [10] - Quote A lot of the problems with active armor tanking could be solved by increasing the efficiency of the medium and large armor reps, they are horribly inefficient compared to small reps and ALL shield boosters. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting

Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:20:00 - [11] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: A lot of the problems with active armor tanking could be solved by increasing the efficiency of the medium and large armor reps, they are horribly inefficient compared to small reps and ALL shield boosters. That's mostly because you are comparing regular sized armor reps to oversized shield boosters/ASBs. The difference isn't THAT large when comparing regular size modules. No I'm not, that is small to small, medium to medium to, large to large/x-large. And no Ancillary were included in this Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:23:00 - [12] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: A lot of the problems with active armor tanking could be solved by increasing the efficiency of the medium and large armor reps, they are horribly inefficient compared to small reps and ALL shield boosters. That's mostly because you are comparing regular sized armor reps to oversized shield boosters/ASBs. The difference isn't THAT large when comparing regular size modules. No I'm not, that is small to small, medium to medium to, large to large/x-large. And no Ancillary were included in this You should be comparing Shield Booster + Boost Amp with 2x armor reps. The HP/GJ/S ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers (Repair Systems V) Small Armor Repairer II 40GJ 80HP 6s = .4444HP/GJ/s Medium Armor Repairer II 160GJ 320 HP 12s = .2222HP/GJ/s Large Armor Repairer II 400GJ 800HP 15s = .1777HP/GJ/s This is a steep change from small to medium, and not much of a change from medium to large. This should be looked at before introducing new modules into the Armor Tanking system. A quick look at shield boosters HP/GJ/second Small Shield Booster 20GJ 30HP 2s = .75HP/GJ/s Medium Shield Booster 60GJ 90HP 3s = .5HP/GJ/s Large Shield Booster 160GJ 240HP 4s = .375HP/GJ/s X-Large Shield Booster 400GJ 600HP 5s = .3HP/GJ/s This is a nice step from small to X-large Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:34:00 - [13] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Takeshi Yamato wrote: You should be comparing Shield Booster + Boost Amp with 2x armor reps. The HP/GJ/S ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers (Repair Systems V) Small Armor Repairer II 40GJ 80HP 6s = .4444HP/GJ/s Medium Armor Repairer II 160GJ 320 HP 12s = .2222HP/GJ/s Large Armor Repairer II 400GJ 800HP 15s = .1777HP/GJ/s This is a steep change from small to medium, and not much of a change from medium to large. This should be looked at before introducing new modules into the Armor Tanking system. A quick look at shield boosters HP/GJ/second Small Shield Booster 20GJ 30HP 2s = .75HP/GJ/s Medium Shield Booster 60GJ 90HP 3s = .5HP/GJ/s Large Shield Booster 160GJ 240HP 4s = .375HP/GJ/s X-Large Shield Booster 400GJ 600HP 5s = .3HP/GJ/s This is a nice step from small to X-large Using these numbers, 2 armor reps will not increase the efficency weather you use 2 or 8 they will only boost at thr rate presented above, where as a shield booster with boost amplifier will generate the following: Small Shield Booster II + Shield Boost Amplifier II 20GJ 40.8HP 2s = 1.02HP/GJ/s Medium Shield Booster II + Shield Boost Amplifier II 60GJ 122.4HP 3s = .68HP/GJ/s Large Shield Booster II + Shield Boost Amplifier II 160GJ 326.4HP 4s = .51HP/GJ/s X-Large Shield Booster II + Shield Boost Amplifier II 400GJ 816HP 5s = .408HP/GJ/s Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:38:00 - [14] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: The HP/GJ/S ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers I don't really know how CCP comes up with the fitting requirements, but the large armor rep really does have excessively high fitting requirements. Ironically I think it was done to prevent cruisers from using them. The HP Repaired / GJ Usage / Time in Seconds ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers Nothing to do with the fittings, this is the Efficency of the repairers Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:43:00 - [15] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: The HP/GJ/S ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers I don't really know how CCP comes up with the fitting requirements, but the large armor rep really does have excessively high fitting requirements. Ironically I think it was done to prevent cruisers from using them. The HP Repaired / GJ Usage / Time in Seconds ratio needs to be looked at for armor repairers Nothing to do with the fittings, this is the Efficency of the repairers T2 armor reps have an efficiency of 2 armor/cap. T2 shield booster plus T2 amp has an efficiency of 2.26 shield/cap. As I said, not a major difference. I don't know what kind of math you're using if armor reps come out as "horribly inefficient" for you. Time, you must not forget time!!! shield boosters cycle much faster than armor reps, so the gap is much farther apart. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 15:51:00 - [16] - Quote Takeshi Yamato wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Time, you must not forget time!!! shield boosters cycle much faster than armor reps, so the gap is much farther apart. Cap efficiency per second is a nonsensical concept. Oh, then why is the Cap free ASB so popular? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 457	Posted - 2013.01.23 16:25:00 - [17] - Quote bigboy boss wrote: The ASB and the Armor "ASB" are both terrible module ideas. I wish they would just remove both from the game and just balance the old modules. The armor one has some potential IMO but not as it is right now, like others have said before, it should use nanite repair paste to supercharge the repairer. The ASB could be fixed if it was a standard booster that could load cap boosters to negate the cap, everything else should be the same as a standard booster of the same size. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 459	Posted - 2013.01.23 19:20:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: A few updates: We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10. I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit. We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client. Now we just need better rep per cycle for medium and large reps Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 460	Posted - 2013.01.23 19:55:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Fozzie wrote: elitatwo wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: A few updates: We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10. I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit. We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client. Dear CCP Fozzie and Yitterbium, did one of you by any chance took a look at my recent proposal? And if yes, what do you think? I didn't want armor tankers to take over New Eden but I also would like to a larger Incursus some day As for numbers, I'm glad I was able to catch up after being away for a day. Anyway I like numbers, I hope you do too? Right now our medium armor repair module I needs 150 powergrid and the tech2 one needs 175 powergrid, so don't we meet in the middle and say that AAR would need powergrid in a range of 155-165 powergrid and we would go a tiny bit lower on the tech1 and tech2 module in a range of let's say Medium Armor Repairer I -> 130 powergrid and the Medium Armir Repairer II -> 145 powergrid and maybe this summer we get some nicer numbers on the larger ones too? Large Armor Repairer I -> 1600 powergrid (no battlecruiser or Tengu will be able to fit this anyway) Large Armor Repairer II -> 1850 powergrid? As with any information you read here, these are merely suggestions and I am not in charge of things! Reducing medium and large armor rep cycle time is definitely an option, either for 1.1 or in a subsequent iteration. I personally feel that bigger rep amount would be better than a faster cycle time and it would keep armor and shields separate on functionality. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 460	Posted - 2013.01.23 20:03:00 - [20] - Quote Dread Operative wrote: CCP Fozzie wrote: A few updates: We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10. I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit. We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client. So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame. Yeah and you can only hold 1600 units or repair paste per 400 cap booster. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting

Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 464	Posted - 2013.01.24 13:16:00 - [21] - Quote It would be nice to see armor tanking turned into actual sustained tanking, by constantly repairing a small amount of damage every second. The current repair per second would not need to change nor would the cap usage per second (at least on SARs). Then MARs and LARs would need a buff in the HP repaired. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 492	Posted - 2013.02.02 16:00:00 - [22] - Quote Did anyone else notice that the AAR description on Sisi says Quote: Prototype Inferno module. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 508	Posted - 2013.02.09 12:00:00 - [23] - Quote Mund Richard wrote: Dang, I edit my posts a thousand times... Luc Chastot wrote: I'm baffled at the lack of any response from CCP Fozzie, feels like these changes were set in stone from the beginning and no amount of feedback will change that. At least with the BCs one thing I wanted to see after the initial posting (of the many-many more) has been implemented: Brutix has a non-hardpoint high, giving the option of a link even with full rack of guns. Just don't ask about the fitting. I have played around with some fits for the brutix, full rack of neutron blasters and a T2 link, here comes the but, it is shield tanked there is almost no cost effective way to do that armor tanked. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 576	Posted - 2013.03.02 13:24:00 - [24] - Quote Roime wrote: AAR is 1.69 T2 reppers. I fail to see where you came up with that number. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 577	Posted - 2013.03.02 15:14:00 - [25] - Quote But you are not including the 60 second reload time into this equation are you, for anything longer than 8 cycles the MAR II will put perform the MAAR. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 577	Posted - 2013.03.02 16:44:00 - [26] - Quote In most cases, not all, it is better to burst tank with an ASB setup vs an AAR setup for the reasons we already know. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 604	Posted - 2013.03.07 15:28:00 - [27] - Quote I was just checking a ETF fit for a navy Dominix, and nearly cried I was pulling a 1k DPS tank an 1100 DPS gank. I was using dual x-large ASB and a full rack of 350mm rails with 3 DDAs Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 614	Posted - 2013.03.07 20:01:00 - [28] - Quote Nikuno wrote: thread ate my post :( Sorry Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting

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